CAP 34 - Part 2 - Defining Moves 1

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snake

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CAP34 So Far

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In this stage, we will develop a list of moves that will meaningfully affect future stages of the process for this CAP. These moves will need to be addressed in the stat limits and stat submission stages in order to contextualize submitted spreads. For example, a stat submission that elects to choose stronger Defining Moves from the "Choose At Least One" or "Optional" lists will be put under heavier scrutiny than those without them. The Movepool SL will organize these moves into the following lists, as needed:
  1. Required: Stat spreads (or other future stages) must account for this move / these moves.
  2. Choose At Least One: Stat spreads (or other future stages) must account for at least one of these moves.
  3. Optional: Stat spreads (or other future stages) can elect to use these moves or not.
Moves that can be chosen as Defining Moves should be in the following categories:
  • Boosting Moves
  • Recovery Moves
  • High Base-Power Moves
  • Strong Utility Moves (self-switching moves, hazards, etc.)
Controversial moves or placements in lists can be sent to poll if the Movepool SL deems it necessary.

Please do not polljump by talking about specific stat spreads or suggesting specific abilities (outside of those already voted for by the community).
 

SHSP

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Howdy yall! We've decided to make a quick pitstop into Defining Moves before continuing along into our next stage, which makes a lot of sense. We've landed on an item in Throat Spray that has a specific set of moves that activate it, and a lot of those moves are rather distinct. Narrowing it down in this stage is going to be a huge help to build a mon that really wants to take advantage of Throat Spray. With that being said, I wanted to start off the stage with a few questions:

1- How narrow do we have to be in this stage? Do we need to walk out of Defining Moves with our hard and fast answer to what we're running as our (main) way of activating Throat Spray, or can we allow a wider selection?

2- There are a variety of moves that activate Throat Spray that we have access to, some purely offensive (like Clanging Scales), some non-damaging (like Metal Sound), and some that fall between the two categories. Does one type of sound move benefit us more than others? Should we be only (or primarily) looking at damaging moves here, or are the more utility-focused options viable routes to pursue as a primary focus?

3- Part of Concept Assessment had a discussion on what sort of roles a mon that revolved around Throat Spray would fill. How much does the type of move we select impact and/or define our role, and what we're looking for in the process going forward?

As a note, I'm not yet opening the floor up to submissions of moves quite yet, as I think starting discussion about it more generally can let us have a strong base from which to figure out what we end up with in this step. Feel free to use examples of sound based moves as you discuss, but avoid pushing for any specific option(s) quite yet.
 
1- How narrow do we have to be in this stage? Do we need to walk out of Defining Moves with our hard and fast answer to what we're running as our (main) way of activating Throat Spray, or can we allow a wider selection?
I think preferably we will need to decide here on the specific move for activation. If we choose a damaging move like Boomburst, we're probably going to end up with something that wants to dish out as much damage ASAP; If we go for a set-up approach (like with Noble Roar), we might prefer a bulkier spread that can allow us to debuff the opponent safely.
2- There are a variety of moves that activate Throat Spray that we have access to, some purely offensive (like Clanging Scales), some non-damaging (like Metal Sound), and some that fall between the two categories. Does one type of sound move benefit us more than others? Should we be only (or primarily) looking at damaging moves here, or are the more utility-focused options viable routes to pursue as a primary focus?
I want to say a utility sound move might give us more flexibility. If we choose a damaging move, we might be more inclined to build around the move (STAB, maybe?). A utility sound move removes that out of the equation, but I'm not saying that the existing damaging moves should be sidelined: we all know about Boomburst, and there are other new options like Eerie Spell and Psychic Noise that we might want to capitalise on.
 

Ehmcee

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1- How narrow do we have to be in this stage? Do we need to walk out of Defining Moves with our hard and fast answer to what we're running as our (main) way of activating Throat Spray, or can we allow a wider selection?
I think we should be fairly narrow with this stage, what specific move we decide to pick as our main activation method will greatly influence our typing and ability stage, we're building around a mon that is most likely not going to be running any boosting moves to incentivize Throat Spray (except ClangSoul), and having STAB on this sound move is extremely important to deal enough damage. I think we should narrow down to a list of 1-3 moves, and determine wether we should pick between these moves or run a mix of them, and then move onwards to typing/ability discussion.

2- There are a variety of moves that activate Throat Spray that we have access to, some purely offensive (like Clanging Scales), some non-damaging (like Metal Sound), and some that fall between the two categories. Does one type of sound move benefit us more than others? Should we be only (or primarily) looking at damaging moves here, or are the more utility-focused options viable routes to pursue as a primary focus?
I don't think we should really be entertaining any status moves as our sound move of choice*, none of them are in line with our current vision of a sweeper.

- Heal Bell:

Finds itself an incredible niche due to the distinct lack of cleric options, and might very well lead to CAP34 becoming a cleric, unless we take multiple extreme precautions to make sure it absolutely cannot become so (because it wouldn't run throat spray). The idea of a late game cleric that also sweeps is at least somewhat interesting, but if it's reliant on your own Pokemon being statused to gain advantage out of it's form of sweeping, I think it's a fairly lackluster way to do so.

- Metal Sound:

Just not a really good move in general, we're going to be using this as a pseudo phasing move, but it also means we're effectively unable to do damage the first turn we're on the field. This allows opposing Pokemon to get a free TWave, a free Toxic, hell even an Encore which would incredibly neuter CAP34's ability to sweep with Throat Spray. This could even potentially allow for free setup opportunities from the opponent, assuming we aren't going to be particularly strong pre-throat spray boost.


- Roar:

While there's some interesting applications to actual phazing here, the random nature of it leaves me incredibly incredulous to it's success. Using Roar to activate our Throat Spray only to phaze in a check or counter of ours, forcing us to switch out would completely ruin the point of having a Throat Spray sweeper in the first place, getting rid of the one thing that we're supposed to be building around anyway.

Now the only exception I think we should really be possibly looking into is Clangorous Soul, however I don't personally believe we should really be looking into it, Clangsoul is just a very obvious path and is kind of just a guarantee that our Pokemon will use Throat Spray. There's not really as much unique design space to be had in building around Clangorous Soul, while there's a ton of opportunities to be had in building around offensive sound moves. I do however think it's the best status sound move we could build around, it just wouldn't offer for a very interesting process.
 
1- How narrow do we have to be in this stage? Do we need to walk out of Defining Moves with our hard and fast answer to what we're running as our (main) way of activating Throat Spray, or can we allow a wider selection?

Preferably, we should focus on multiple options for sound moves that activate throat spray, that way we can have a more broad typing and ability stage rather than locking in on just a couple few. As long as we pinpoint actual moves that guide our typing stage we wil be fine.

2- There are a variety of moves that activate Throat Spray that we have access to, some purely offensive (like Clanging Scales), some non-damaging (like Metal Sound), and some that fall between the two categories. Does one type of sound move benefit us more than others? Should we be only (or primarily) looking at damaging moves here, or are the more utility-focused options viable routes to pursue as a primary focus?

There is a single Non-Damaging sound move worth exploring and that is Clangorous Soul, any other option just doesn't provide good value in order to justify running throat spray, any other option will just kill momentum. Offensive moves that activate throat spray sounds like the best option, so the important part will be to make sure we don't make this mon too prone to spamming a single move in order to prevent CAP 34 from slapping on a Choice Spec and calling it a day.

3- Part of Concept Assessment had a discussion on what sort of roles a mon that revolved around Throat Spray would fill. How much does the type of move we select impact and/or define our role, and what we're looking for in the process going forward?

I'd argue that Throat Spray by itself already makes it clear that we will most likely be looking at a very offensive sweeper, so I feel the type of the moves we select are most likely to just make us more likely to choose certain typings, which will then help us select which threats we will want to be dealing in the endgame of a match.
 
1- How narrow do we have to be in this stage? Do we need to walk out of Defining Moves with our hard and fast answer to what we're running as our (main) way of activating Throat Spray, or can we allow a wider selection?
I think it depend if we want cap34 to have one move that activates throat spray vs multiple. If we want to narrow down to one answer, then it needs to be something worth clicking since it'll be the only way to get that boost, which will be needed for any extra stab/coverage that isn't a sound move. If we decide that cap can have multiple sound moves, a wider option wouldn't be an issue.

2- There are a variety of moves that activate Throat Spray that we have access to, some purely offensive (like Clanging Scales), some non-damaging (like Metal Sound), and some that fall between the two categories. Does one type of sound move benefit us more than others? Should we be only (or primarily) looking at damaging moves here, or are the more utility-focused options viable routes to pursue as a primary focus?
As much as I like utility, it seems to only work if cap will have half or more of its defining moveset be composed of sound moves. This would allow cap to get a boost either if its in a position that needs the utility or that affords the damaging move. Not only that, our utility options are limited, with only roar being viable enough to consider. I don't think it'd work, even if I want it to.

I want to touch upon the options of one sound move vs various options here, also: making cap have one sound move and the rest of its moveset normal would give us flexibility on when throat spray snowballing is activated. You get 3 moveslots that can be used for pivoting, boosting, recovery and in general allow for more options in how our sweeper will work. However, it NEEDS a sound move thats easy to click. The big fat damaging ones, basically. Anything else and throat spray is not incentivized.

If we decide that we want multiple sound moves in one set, we have an easier time making throat spray worth it, and we can experiment with carrying multiple sound coverage, or utility moves that couldn't sustain themselves if they were the only thing making throat spray viable, but also attacks that have interesting effects (psychic noise, snarl) but aren't big and dumb enough to be enough for a single sound move slot. However, I think we give up a bit of flexibility of when throat spray can be activated. It is much harder to avoid using half your moveset than just one move, and force the pokemon to make a splash as soon as it enters, which then makes the whole option of utility a bit counterintuitive.

I think I find the idea of one sound move more interesting. It won't be exploring that many new sound moves, but it will let the pokémon itself branch out into more options.

I hope this made sense LOL
 
For me it makes sense to give it boomburst and torch song because it's throat spray of course it needs moves to activate throat spray also I was thinking maybe give it some support moves like twave , encore, toxic, or will-o-wisp and maybe even something like hyper voice and we maybe give at least one priority move and this Mon feels like a great user of uturn . By gaining uturn it can help it's team gain momentum. I'm mostly dumping moves here so it doesn't really matter if I don't get picked
 
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1- How narrow do we have to be in this stage? Do we need to walk out of Defining Moves with our hard and fast answer to what we're running as our (main) way of activating Throat Spray, or can we allow a wider selection?

I would honestly prefer a wider selection of moves, as that would allow CAP 34 to, well, have a wide variety of sets that could go with Throat Spray, and have multiple ways of activating it, keeping the opponent on their toes as opposed to the opponent knowing, “Oh, I gotta look out for this move, as it’s going to use this move to activate Throat Spray”. This also allows more creativity on the Typing and Ability stages, as we don’t have to focus on working with a small selection of moves.

2- There are a variety of moves that activate Throat Spray that we have access to, some purely offensive (like Clanging Scales), some non-damaging (like Metal Sound), and some that fall between the two categories. Does one type of sound move benefit us more than others? Should we be only (or primarily) looking at damaging moves here, or are the more utility-focused options viable routes to pursue as a primary focus?

I do believe that damaging moves are very much superior to non-damaging moves, as using a non-damaging move to activate throat spray is really easy to punish, and it would incentivize running another item. However, there is an exception, and that is Clangorous Soul, however, I don’t think this would work for 2 reasons.

1. Clangorous Soul is probably is on the Restricted Moves list, and

2. Adding Clangorous Soul would probably force this Pokémon into a sweeping role, and I’m afraid that this would heavily restrict our Typing, Ability, and Stat Spread options.

3- Part of Concept Assessment had a discussion on what sort of roles a mon that revolved around Throat Spray would fill. How much does the type of move we select impact and/or define our role, and what we're looking for in the process going forward?

I’m looking for a Pokemon capable of helping teammates with breading the team down(Hazards, Status, Damage, etc.), until it’s time to activate Throat Spray via a sound move and either break or sweep. This would allow creativity on all other fronts of CAP 34, and allow more viable options CAP 34 can utilize. I consider a success of CAP 34 as being not only satisfying the concept give, but also making a staple in the CAP metagame(B+ or higher in the CAP viability rankings), and I think this view would provide these requirements.

I believe that making a Pivot or Wall role out of throat spray is completely unviable due tho throat spray activating once in a game. A pivot constantly switching in and out would waste the Special Attack boost, basically making the item useless, and a wall wouldn’t really benefit with the buff, and would rather just have another item, like leftovers or HDB. Both of these would bacically incentivize running one of the popular items and not Throat Spray by nature of what the roles are.

A Wallbreaker would be most favorable with Throat Spray, with a sweeper being close behind, as the ability to use different moves in combination with that boost would improve it’s breaking ability. It also incentivizes Throat Spray more than a sweeper, as really a setup sweeper is realistic, as a fast sweeper who just clicks that 1 move would just incentivize a choice item, and the only setup option realistic for Throat spray is Clangorous Soul, which runs into the problems I mentioned above.

yap yap yap yap yap look at this man yap lmaaoooooo
 

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dex

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1- How narrow do we have to be in this stage? Do we need to walk out of Defining Moves with our hard and fast answer to what we're running as our (main) way of activating Throat Spray, or can we allow a wider selection?

I think a wider selection is preferable. Cutting down the long list of Sound-based moves to something more manageable gives the best blend of openness and direction for our future stages. Additionally, it has been shown that having multiple moves that proc Throat Spray on the same set is a positive, as it gives you flexibility with the boost, and I would hate to close that door right now.

2- There are a variety of moves that activate Throat Spray that we have access to, some purely offensive (like Clanging Scales), some non-damaging (like Metal Sound), and some that fall between the two categories. Does one type of sound move benefit us more than others? Should we be only (or primarily) looking at damaging moves here, or are the more utility-focused options viable routes to pursue as a primary focus?

Damaging moves benefit a Throat Spray user way, way more than non-damaging moves. Boosting and attacking at the same time is a seriously strong play in Pokemon, as it makes it much more difficult to punish the boost without that free turn. I simply don't think any non-damaging or even low-damaging move can cut it, with one exception: Clangorous Soul. It's already been talked about, but, while boosting is probably not great in a vacuum, as we want to support Throat Spray as much as possible, an Omni-boost + Throat Spray is strong and doesn't supplant Throat Spray because the move has limited repeatability. So, moves that do a decent amount of damage (probably like 70 BP and up if I had to put a quick mark on it) and/or Clangorous Soul are what we want.

3- Part of Concept Assessment had a discussion on what sort of roles a mon that revolved around Throat Spray would fill. How much does the type of move we select impact and/or define our role, and what we're looking for in the process going forward?

It shouldn't do much more to define the role than we have already figured out. We know CAP 34 is going to be angled around sweeping. The move stage can help us figure out if we a) want a sweeper that can have some mid-game value, b) want a sweeper that is more focused on having an all-in-one sweeping attempt, or c) want to leave that decision for later. It's a good thing to figure out, but it isn't the biggest difference.
 
1- How narrow do we have to be in this stage? Do we need to walk out of Defining Moves with our hard and fast answer to what we're running as our (main) way of activating Throat Spray, or can we allow a wider selection?
While I feel like our defining moves list should be narrow, having a definite answer this early into the process seems like a bad idea. We should have enough options to allow for variety in the typing and ability stages, but not so many that we're stuck trying to find abilities that work with a majority of the moves, especially if said majority is filled with not very good moves. In particular, I feel that having around 8-10 options at most is best, with a slight chance for more given the options available.

2- There are a variety of moves that activate Throat Spray that we have access to, some purely offensive (like Clanging Scales), some non-damaging (like Metal Sound), and some that fall between the two categories. Does one type of sound move benefit us more than others? Should we be only (or primarily) looking at damaging moves here, or are the more utility-focused options viable routes to pursue as a primary focus?
For the most part, damaging moves should be the majority of the moves that we look at. With Throat Spray guiding 34 towards being a more offensive mon, most moves that don't directly help offensive momentum are already difficult to justify, as their utility is locked behind the throat spray, meaning 34 either has to sacrifice its item early, or wait till its sweep to use it, at which point it'll need serious justifications in order to get use after sweeping mode has begun. That being said, there are a few support-based moves that are still worth considering: in particular, Psychic Noise, Clangorous Soul, and Heal Bell all give utility worth noting, with Clangorous Soul being an extremely obvious choice, and Heal Bell allowing 34 to absorb statuses and support earlier on in a battle, before suddenly switching itself to attacking mode while ridding itself of pesky things like Toxic or Paralysis. Even then, though, I still feel like damaging moves outshine them, as keeping momentum up even while going into the sweep is an incredibly strong trait to have.

3- Part of Concept Assessment had a discussion on what sort of roles a mon that revolved around Throat Spray would fill. How much does the type of move we select impact and/or define our role, and what we're looking for in the process going forward?
I'm not sure any move really defines 34's role more than Throat Spray already does. Rather, most of them seem to either meld with or heavily contrast with its playstyle, that being setting up for sweeping. Mostly, the moves we select should be able to be of use to 34 after it has set up, otherwise 34 effectively has an empty moveslot after it has begun its sweep.
 

snake

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1- How narrow do we have to be in this stage? Do we need to walk out of Defining Moves with our hard and fast answer to what we're running as our (main) way of activating Throat Spray, or can we allow a wider selection?
We should know which sound moves are good as potential STAB moves or excellent non-damaging sound moves by the end of this stage. This will allow us to know which typings are on the table for typing discussion. If need be, I think other defining moves can be chosen before stat limits stage with a second, shorter defining moves stage based on our chosen typing and ability.

Conversely, I think the sound moves that we shouldn't consider (or place restrictions on) should be discussed here also. There are a couple moves which concern me, so I hope to discuss them at a later point in this thread.

2- There are a variety of moves that activate Throat Spray that we have access to, some purely offensive (like Clanging Scales), some non-damaging (like Metal Sound), and some that fall between the two categories. Does one type of sound move benefit us more than others? Should we be only (or primarily) looking at damaging moves here, or are the more utility-focused options viable routes to pursue as a primary focus?
Offensive moves should be our main focus to play into the sweeper role that we converged on by the end of the concept assessment. Most of the offensive sound moves will fit the bill for this concept, but a couple will not as I have previously mentioned.

Most of the utility-focused options, while interesting, won't mesh very well with the sweeper role. The main exception, of course, is Clangerous Soul, which I believe should be on the table for discussion in this thread. Throat Spray aligns very well with the move, providing a direct benefit to clicking the setup move. While other items are certainly possible with Clangerous Soul, I feel optimistic because Kommo-O also runs the item. Clangerous Soul isn't required for Throat Spray to work, as it's entirely possible to build a sweeper build without the move, but it would be amiss not to examine it in detail in this stage.

1. Clangorous Soul is probably is on the Restricted Moves list, and

2. Adding Clangorous Soul would probably force this Pokémon into a sweeping role, and I’m afraid that this would heavily restrict our Typing, Ability, and Stat Spread options.
Clangerous Soul does not appear on the list of banned moves, as those are reserved for legendary signature moves. Also, we decided that a biasing towards a sweeper role would be best in the concept assessment thread. Furthermore, Clangerous Soul doesn't restrict typing, and ability choice will be driven first by the fact that we want to incentivize Throat Spray and less by Clangerous Soul. While I can see how Clangerous Soul would impact our stat spread, neither of these two points feel particularly strong against Clangerous Soul.
 

Samirsin

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:snom: :ababo:

As much as I would love to see something really unexplored like Throat Spray activated by a status sound move (that is not Clangorous Soul), we will end up with offensive moves, as they are more viable, and, as seen by this thread, there is proof on why it wouldn't work unless we really push the concept.

I am really against Clangorous Soul as it will give us Kommo-o 2, which we all know how it works, not something new to explore.
 
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How narrow do we have to be in this stage? Do we need to walk out of Defining Moves with our hard and fast answer to what we're running as our (main) way of activating Throat Spray, or can we allow a wider selection?
Having moves narrowed down to a few Attacks, of which one or two are going to be making the key component of the moveset is fine. To keep typing open, we should determine the set of most usable/concept relevant options and move forward into Typing with those.

There are a variety of moves that activate Throat Spray that we have access to, some purely offensive (like Clanging Scales), some non-damaging (like Metal Sound), and some that fall between the two categories. Does one type of sound move benefit us more than others? Should we be only (or primarily) looking at damaging moves here, or are the more utility-focused options viable routes to pursue as a primary focus?
I don’t think it makes sense to put non damaging moves on the list rn, as we are looking into them to define our typing and they don’t have much or any influence on Typing. Honestly most non damaging sound moves don’t cut it anyway, with the exception of Clangorous Soul and maybe Metal Sound, both of which can be part of the secondary defining moves we do before stats.
For the purpose of this stage I think it’s fine to group pure attacks and attacks with added utility as they are mostly here to inform our STAB typing and not to further define our role immediately.

Part of Concept Assessment had a discussion on what sort of roles a mon that revolved around Throat Spray would fill. How much does the type of move we select impact and/or define our role, and what we're looking for in the process going forward?
Honest I don’t think the type of moves we go forward with really is going to define our role beyond what we already know.
Most of the moves are equally strong or fall within the same perimeter of power.
The only exceptions within attacking moves are Boomburst, which has more than 50% more power than any other option and likely would push this Mon more towards wall breaking and Psychic Noise, which has an additional advantage in stall breaking.
While again I don’t believe they have much impact on typing and aren’t relevant at this stage I can answer this now for Clangorous Soul and Metal Sound. Clang definitely moves this design much further into sweeper and cleaner territory with the additional speed and defense boost, while metal sounds has added Wallbreaking utility.
Conversely, I think the sound moves that we shouldn't consider (or place restrictions on) should be discussed here also. There are a couple moves which concern me, so I hope to discuss them at a later point in this thread.
I want to second this also. Imo it’s more important to define which sound moves do not help our case during this stage and which should be left of the Pokémon’s kit, than picking the definite move that we build around.
The two moves, that I believe will negatively impact the usage of Throat Spray are first and foremost Torch Song and second Boomburst.
Torch Song boosting SpA alone means that CAP34 wouldn’t rely on Throat Spray to boost and allow it to run another item as well, which I believe would happen in almost any case with the exception of maybe unburden and simple as ability. Thus I am of the opinion that Torch Song constrains our options too much and is the most likely to make Throat Spray undesirable.
Boomburst as STAB just really wants to slap on a Choice item and go. There might be a case for it as non STAB move, but since that wouldn’t have much impact on Typing atm, it could be left for a later secondary defining moves stage.
Lastly while not in the same tier as the other two I think Bug Buzz doesn’t cut it as well it’s Bug type, which is ass.
Other than that I think picking a move between the 70 BP plus options seems fine.
I don’t think that Moves with immunities for example are much of an issue at this point as we can still design the Mon to make use of that interaction with a defensive answer in some ways.
 
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ausma

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Most of everyone's points regarding the other questions SHSP has brought to the table have been discussed, but I'd like to dissent a bit regarding #2 and explain a bit why I do think there's some reason to consider utility sound-based moves, even if it's a bit more stringent.

I generally agree that Throat Spray does lean us toward an offensive direction, but the thing about utility is that it actually can contribute toward offense through enabling opportunities to fulfill an offensive gameplan. Although they may not directly exert pressure, there are sound-based utility moves that work toward enabling a long-term sweeping plan as opposed to directly damaging. Clangorous Soul aside, the obvious candidates of Heal Bell and Noble Roar are both utility-based sound moves, but are ones that actually would make a hypothetical setup route easier by making it easier to snowball. Heal Bell, as an example, eliminates arguably the biggest problem of a bulky setup sweeper in the form of status, meaning that Heal Bell could theoretically see use as a sound-based option on a setup variant that wants to maximize longevity to snowball more efficiently, especially with options like Stored Power to take advantage. Noble Roar can accomplish something similar, or even Metal Sound to give a more offensive route an added, innate option into Unaware.

There's just one caveat with this, and it's that using utility moves as a mechanism to activate Throat Spray really want the added support of abilities to really accentuate the ways in which Throat Spray operates and make it a more tantalizing choice. If in the case we had abilities that complemented its correlation with sound moves, the consumable nature of it, or the SpAtk boost, it definitely becomes a more appealing choice by offering a unique simultaneous benefit. I do think for that reason that going with dedicated utility moves as a primary activator for Throat Spray is not the most intuitive choice as it does force more direct synergies, but to call them a poor fit does a disservice to the inherent nature of utility as an enabler for certain gameplans.

Tl;dr: let's not sleep on some of the more niche sound moves. Even if they wind up not being defining per se, I do think there are some that latently exist that have intrinsic synergy with Throat Spray with some very intriguing design space but aren't necessarily overly dominating if we don't want them to be. Abilities just need to be a bit more of a factor with them, which isn't necessarily a reason not to consider them.

___

Lastly, I'm going to weigh in regarding the last major, dedicated "utility" sound move: Clangorous Soul. It's a high-power option worth discussion that would absolutely encourage Throat Spray, but I am wary of it when it's so heavily skewed toward all-out setup sweeping. If we manage to find a way that makes it conscientious of every boost and has some dynamic with the HP loss, I'm far more open to it; in fact, I do think there's some highly unique design space if the move is dissected for every aspect of its design. However, with Throat Spray to double down on the SpAtk boost I struggle to see a route with it that wouldn't culminate in just being a more focused set-up Kommo-o, exploring nothing in practice.

Regarding sound moves as a whole, I am a supporter of Psychic Noise, Heal Bell, Alluring Voice, Snarl, Metal Sound, and Clangorous Soul (in that order).
 

Brambane

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The benefit of Clangorous Soul is keeps the ability stage more open and typing more open as well. You aren't worried about your STAB or coverage being sounds moves. Your ability doesn't need to support or incentivize Throat Spray specifically either, in fact the ability synergy with Throat Spray is pretty much negligible with Clangorous Soul since that move is all the reason you need to run the item.

The downside to Clangorous Soul is objectively nothing, as there is nothing inherently outside our capabilities as a community and the ruleset of process to create an omniboost sweeper. Subjectively, people might not want to make a sweeper, but sweeper is easily the most open role we could build in this metagame, especially when said sweeper gets the Defense boost to protect itself from a Hemogoblin Espeed or Gambit Sucker, and Speed boost to keep up with the fast offensive of the format.

Non-Clangorous Soul directions are valid as well, just be conscientious about the deal you are making when you pursue that. There are very, very few abilities that will make a Throat Spray user shine as sweeper compared to the two dozen or so other excellent sweepers in the format, so we really need a standout typing and excellent ability/movepool to make this mon stick out in the crowd.
 
Regarding sound moves as a whole, I am a supporter of Psychic Noise, Heal Bell, Alluring Voice, Snarl, Metal Sound, and Clangorous Soul (in that order).
I agree pretty firmly with this list, only change is I'd add Eerie Spell in there somewhere.

Clangorous Soul is definitely the most straightforward way to connect the dots between "Use Throat Spray" and "Play to Win". It also does a fair bit to offset the sheer gravity of Boots, Lefties, and Choice Items, which will be a constant nuisance in this design process.

But it's also not got a lot of new ground to cover. Kommo-o is very specifically tuned to make this move as interesting as possible in a plethora of ways, which includes the fact that it isn't well optimized for using the move alongside Throat Spray, leaving it room to use the move for physical or mixed sets, or even to forgo it entirely. Meanwhile, if we're aiming to make a design that uses Throat Spray as much as possible, giving it Clangorous Soul very quickly locks in this design as "The Throat Spray + Clang Soul Mon", and the gravity of Clangorous Soul might even take away from the item slot lock if it comes to be that Sitrus Berry is more impactful.

A few more moves not discussed thus far;

Sing is worth mentioning. (RIP Grasswhistle) The big issue Sing tends to have is in regards to outcome variance; it can swing the game in the user's favor dramatically if the opponent is forced to deal with many sleep turns, or it can miss and do nothing. A focus on Throat Spray normalizes this variance in a few ways, as the guaranteed boon removes the potential for a completely empty turn, the single use nature of the move / item combo makes its use more deliberate, and an aim to focus on a one-time boosting item is probably going to push the design the exclude other forms of stat scaling, which can help limit the impact of high sleep turn rolls.

Parting Shot is real, maybe? In truth, it probably just results in the Pokemon being pulled in by the gravity of Boots. Still, there might be some merit in a gimmick around a pivoting move that can't be used too early for fear of wasting a precious consumable item, and given Psychic Noise and Eerie Spell might push a Psychic Typing, having a way to shed Knock Off damage and preserve momentum might work out nicely?
 
We're looking at a mon that's probably not entering the field much, probably carries 3 or 4 attacks, depending on if its activation move is an attack or not. When it enters the field it exerts offensive pressure innately, threatening the setup regardless of whether it goes for it or not. If the mon comes out before it is actually ready to sweep, you're looking to bait out checks and counters to wear them down to allow the sweep later. We can say spikes are a great way to get progress with it to wear down checks a la greninja, but I think at this point we should just pick our activation move and figure out the rest when we return to defining moves. It might be helpful to look at our activation move in terms of category.

Status Moves
outside of clangorous soul, there isn't a status move that's more favorable for a sweeper than an attack it has the option to click again. I'd rather not inherently limit the amount of attacks the mon can carry. I'm not saying anything else should be disallowed in the movepool, just that they are not ideal for what we're trying to accomplish. Clangorous Soul has probably been discussed enough so all I'll say is that I want to capitalize on our ability to setup through our item and highlight that niche over using a setup move, but I won't pretend it isn't an appropriate avenue.

Non-STAB Damaging Moves
Boomburst is frankly the only sound move with threatening NonSTAB damage output even before the boost. I think cases can be made for other sound move coverage, but if the case is to target waters and corviknight with nonSTAB overdrive, those mons are switching out to a ground type or a resist and you're not getting much damage off. Boomburst has the same issue with ghost types, and I think that's important to note, but the base power is much more than 80.

STAB Damaging Moves
The only other option, and potentially ideal option, is STAB on our activation move for good damage output before and after the spray activates. Moves like uproar suck, and torch song discourages throat spray completely, so I've narrowed the list of sound moves we can potentially use with STAB.

Hyper Voice - Base Power: 90 - Type: Normal
Boomburst - Base Power: 140 - Type: Normal
Bug Buzz - Base Power: 90 - Type: Bug
Snarl - Base Power: 55 - Type: Dark- Significantly weaker damage output, but it has interesting tech with the special attack drop on the opponent.
Sparkling Aria - Base Power: 90 - Type: Water - (Heals target's burns)
Clanging scales - Base Power: 110 - Type: Dragon - Lower's user's defense by one stage.
Overdrive - Base Power: 80 - Type: Electric
Alluring voice - Base Power: 80 - Type: Fairy - Confuses target if they raised their stats this turn
Eerie spell - Base Power: 80 - Type: Psychic - Lower's PP of target's last used move by 3.
Psychic noise - Base Power: 75 - Type Psychic - Heal Block


There is discussion worth having about having multiple sound moves in a movepool, too. If a psychic type has boomburst and psychic noise at it's disposal it could run Boomburst and Psychic/Psyshock, Boomburst and Psychic Noise, or Psychic Noise without boomburst (boomburst would be on every set if included tho). Maybe we don't even want boomburst but we're still worried about dark types blocking psychic noise setup, maybe somewhere deep in the mon's movepool is a non-clangorous soul status move that will guarantee set-up in the face of a dark type (or ghost type if we do go with boomburst) and allow us the upper hand. I don't think there's anything wrong with an entire type being immune to our setup move, it can be a balancing factor in limiting setup opportunities, but I don't think the less dynamic status moves would be a complete waste of a moveslot if it made a difference for the CAP when it needs it.

I think it would be appropriate to pick our primary activation move out of Status / Non-STAB / STAB Damaging move, or if were honest: Clangorous Soul / Boomburst / STAB damaging move. Should we go with STAB damaging move, I think we should move onto typing submissions with the understanding that typing would decide our primary activation move too.
 
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I don't have too much to add other than agreeing with the sentiment that Clangorous Soul has already been explored sufficiently on Kommo-O. It is the main set for the Pokemon to run in generation 9, and I feel that anything we make using this move will inevitably feel about the same to play as Kommo-O. We could be far more creative with how we go about using this item.
 

Brambane

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I don't have too much to add other than agreeing with the sentiment that Clangorous Soul has already been explored sufficiently on Kommo-O. It is the main set for the Pokemon to run in generation 9, and I feel that anything we make using this move will inevitably feel about the same to play as Kommo-O. We could be far more creative with how we go about using this item.
I am going to respond to this notion because it makes a false assumption, which is that Kommo-o uses Clangorous Soul well.

Kommo-o is functional with the move, but Kommo-o is, if anything, a jack of all trades Pokemon. It can do a lot of things kinda okay, but really doesn't excel in any department. Clangorous Soul is the same. It certainly uses the move sufficiently, in Gen 9 with Tera Normal Boomburst helping it along, but in CAP especially this is a Pokemon rife with issues. It's typing as a special attacker is quite poor; special Fighting is notoriously bad, to the extant Kommo-o would rather go mixed and Clanging Scales doesn't shore up that weakness well at all. It has to lean in hard on Boomburst, and all of the options leave the mon completely whiffed against Arghonaut. Kommo-o also had middling Speed, leaving it outpaced in an offensive metagame by plenty of Booster Energy Pokemon. The worst thing about the Pokemon is that it is completely Tera reliant to be not deadweight against the literal best Pokemon in the format, Hemogoblin.

While Clangorous Soul is possibly the Pokemon's best set, it is very poorly equipped to use the move well in CAP. We would not make the Pokemon like Kommo-o, who has a kit full of options that allow it branch out okayish into multiple roles. CAP likes to focus on an element; we would make a much more elegant and synergistic Clangorous Soul user, one that actually pushes the move to genuine viability and ideally without requiring you to make teambuilding sacrifices to the degree Kommo-o does. Ideally this Pokemon could take advantage of the boon of +1 Defense in a meta full of priority better than Kommo-o, certainly much better use of the Speed, and not lose momentum the best Unaware wall in the game nearly as hard unless you fully commit to Tera.

So Kommo-o explores Clangorous Soul insufficiently in the context of our metagame. If people want to not make a Clangorous Soul user, that is fine, but suggesting Kommo-o leaves no room to explore or any creativity for us is disingenuous reasoning at best.
 
There is discussion worth having about having multiple sound moves in a movepool, too. If a psychic type has boomburst and psychic noise at it's disposal it could run Boomburst and Psychic/Psyshock, Boomburst and Psychic Noise, or Psychic Noise without boomburst (boomburst would be on every set if included tho). Maybe we don't even want boomburst but we're still worried about dark types blocking psychic noise setup, maybe somewhere deep in the mon's movepool is a non-clangorous soul status move that will guarantee set-up in the face of a dark type (or ghost type if we do go with boomburst) and allow us the upper hand. I don't think there's anything wrong with an entire type being immune to our setup move, it can be a balancing factor in limiting setup opportunities, but I don't think the less dynamic status moves would be a complete waste of a moveslot if it made a difference for the CAP when it needs it.

I think it would be appropriate to pick our primary activation move out of Status / Non-STAB / STAB Damaging move, or if were honest: Clangorous Soul / Boomburst / STAB damaging move. Should we go with STAB damaging move, I think we should move onto typing submissions with the understanding that typing would decide our primary activation move too.
To add on to what you're saying: Unless we're focusing in on specifically Clangorous Soul, I think we would benefit a lot from having at least two "primary" activation moves rather than just picking one. Part of what we're getting out of using Throat Spray is the ability to inflict damage and boost on the same turn, and having two strong-enough sound moves of different types available will allow us to have more opportunities to set up off of the switches we force or whatever. This goes even if we're choosing activation moves that don't have an immunity that can block them, like for example, I think on most builds Sparkling Aria and Alluring Voice would be better than Surf and Alluring Voice. Having option(s) to click if we don't want to boost yet definitely matters too, but since the Throat Spray's +1 doesn't apply until the turn after we boost, we may be lacking in immediate power and the flexibility that having 2 moves to set up off of instead of just 1 can help compensate for that (unless we go all in on Boomburst, then I guess we probably won't be lacking in immediate power).

While a good damaging option is almost certainly necessary to best take advantage of Throat Spray (unless Clangorous Soul), a couple utility options might suffice as that additional option to boost with too; I like asuma's arguments for Heal Bell and Metal Sound. In particular, Psychic Noise is the best of both worlds in being both damaging coverage and a pretty good utility function packed into one move.
 

quziel

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1- How narrow do we have to be in this stage? Do we need to walk out of Defining Moves with our hard and fast answer to what we're running as our (main) way of activating Throat Spray, or can we allow a wider selection?


My personal take is that we should just remove the obvious chaff, and get a list of moves we suspect could work. This is imo what's necessary to move into ability and typing selection, as I think being able to explicitly reference moves off of that list could really help inform our choices moving forward. I think we don't really know enough about the mon atm to really make an explicit move choice atm, and I feel doing so would probably end up harming us in the long run.
 

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1- How narrow do we have to be in this stage? Do we need to walk out of Defining Moves with our hard and fast answer to what we're running as our (main) way of activating Throat Spray, or can we allow a wider selection?
I don't think we should be narrow. Leaving CAP34 with a selection of viable options to activate its item will enable the 'mon to be more than just a one-trick pony, which would be beneficial given the strategy knowledge an opponent will have coming into Team Preview. Allowing CAP34 to feel able to run different approaches and techs to better mesh with its team and to keep the opponent on guard will better set CAP34 up for success.

2- There are a variety of moves that activate Throat Spray that we have access to, some purely offensive (like Clanging Scales), some non-damaging (like Metal Sound), and some that fall between the two categories. Does one type of sound move benefit us more than others? Should we be only (or primarily) looking at damaging moves here, or are the more utility-focused options viable routes to pursue as a primary focus?
I strongly believe that utility-focused options are a wonderful space to explore. Metal Sound and Noble Roar explore a fascinating design space of setting CAP34 up to give the opponent a tough choice - stay in, try to mess up CAP34's goals somewhat but be severely weakened against a powered-up CAP34, or switch out and allow it to gain its boost for free but debuff a 'mon that maybe doesn't mind it so much. Roar and Clangorous Soul are powerful moves in their own right and have been discussed (the latter especially). I'd rather not ignore an entire design space off rip, especially since we're already limited to one half of the offensive spectrum here.

[Sorry for a shorter response and the disregarding of Question 3, juggling many things during this discussion and just wanted to contribute my loose thoughts that I had actual opinions about - Question 3 I read over and didn't have any thoughts on, so I've left it out.]
 
1- How narrow do we have to be in this stage? Do we need to walk out of Defining Moves with our hard and fast answer to what we're running as our (main) way of activating Throat Spray, or can we allow a wider selection?

I think that the concept we've selected already greatly narrows what we can do with this Pokemon. I don't think we need a hard and fast answer for establishing a main way of activating Throat Spray. Hot take IK but I don't think we should be selecting just one activating move, otherwise the outcome is going to be one-dimensional at best. Just making a Pokemon centred around Boomburst is extremely boring and cumulatively explored to death by GF and CAP.

2- There are a variety of moves that activate Throat Spray that we have access to, some purely offensive (like Clanging Scales), some non-damaging (like Metal Sound), and some that fall between the two categories. Does one type of sound move benefit us more than others? Should we be only (or primarily) looking at damaging moves here, or are the more utility-focused options viable routes to pursue as a primary focus?

Damaging moves with secondary effects are always, ALWAYS going to be better than any other move that's not Boomburst (and even then, there'll be plenty of better use cases for them than Boomburst). Sound-based status moves don't really perform well to start with. Noble Roar and Metal Sound aren't exceptions, they just stand out for sucking the least.

3- Part of Concept Assessment had a discussion on what sort of roles a mon that revolved around Throat Spray would fill. How much does the type of move we select impact and/or define our role, and what we're looking for in the process going forward?
I don't think that there's much of a choice in what type of move we select lol, it's guaranteed to be a special attack. The real question is what we want the activating turn to mean. Does that mean a damaging attack that gives a +1 boost and Heal Block? Does that mean Torch Song becomes a combination of Nasty Plot and Fire Pledge? Or Eerie Spell draining 3 recovery PP and providing a boost? The greatest amount of space for defining CAP 34 is made by leveraging one or more of those secondary effects and building on the role that choice cements.
 

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Discussion has been excellent so far! I'm back to comment on a few conclusions from what we've talked about:

Notably, we're almost all behind this stage focusing more on attacking moves that can proc Throat Spray. Some options like Heal Bell were mentioned, but generally speaking it seems best to leave those for movepool stage proper and later consideration, focusing in on activating our item through pure offense for the time being. There's one exception to that, though, and it'll come up a little later in this post.

We also want to slim down our options coming out of this stage, but we don't necessarily want to be left with just one activation move. Several posts so far mentioned having multiple options rather than just one, and I wholeheartedly agree with the sentiment. I think it'll help both from a process perspective in guiding later stages (without being too overbearing), and in giving us direction, building a final product in a coherent way. We do need to trim some fat here, though, and narrow down our list to the best fits.

There have additionally been some moves that have already come up a good few times that I'm interested in a deeper discussion on from the jump. Most notably, Clangorous Soul seems the most divisive (and is the one major exception to our "pure attacking moves" focus), but Boomburst and some others additionally have already had some interesting back and forth. I'm opening up discussion around the pros and the cons of the sound attacks here: what stands out as a good fit for the concept and why? What doesn't? A lot of these moves stand as pretty unique options when compared, so I'm eager to see what everyone thinks. Expect to hear from me again sooner as opposed to later after some initial discussion here.
 
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